Venturopoly: Christopher Hill, Founder of Hands Up Holidays

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I had the privilege of speaking with Christopher Hill, the founder of Hands Up Holidays and Impact Destinations and a couple other brands that are connected to that. And basically what it is is it's luxury travel connected with making a difference, leaving an impact in those places. And it's something that you'll have to listen to hear his story, his journey and the impact that's been taking place. But everyone from individual travelers to families and especially families are seeing incredible impact in the kids from going and getting hands on in these communities and leaving impact, positive impact, true impact, not just a photo op, not just greenwashing, leaving those, those positive things behind. So this is definitely something that's close to my heart. It was cool to, to have this conversation because it's the way that I grew up and he's turned this into, to an incredible luxury business. But it's something that there's definitely huge value in what they're doing and it's not something that's talked about very often. It's not something that is very well known that you can go on a holiday, you can have a luxury vacation at the same time make a huge difference in people's lives in the areas where you're going. So hope you enjoy this episode. Take a listen, tell me a little bit about your story and what you're doing. I guess start with what your travel does, like what your trips do. You could explain maybe better how to, how to say it? It's volunteer luxury tourism basically. Yeah. Adventure, luxury and volunteering all in one. [00:01:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Especially for the, for the Handsome Holidays brand. The impact destinations is, is a bit different. But yes, the Handsome Holidays, it's a combination of the luxury with customized sightseeing with an element of giving back in a hands on way through service which can be helping at a building project. It could be repairs and renovations. Could be being a reading partner at a school or helping at a wildlife or environmental conservation project. And then the fifth, the Greek is around. If you've got specific skills such as medical skills, then we utilize those as well. Yeah. [00:02:27] Speaker A: So how did, how did it all come about? Because I, I remember like back in the 90s, Habitat for Humanity was a thing and so our, our church group back then would like go to Mexico. We were in the US so they would go to Mexico and they would build houses for people and it was sort of like a, sort of a mission trip. But also, you know, they would for, for high schoolers it was an amazing opportunity to go to a foreign country because at that time you know, travel was not quite as, as popular and common as it is now with technology and everything. That's really changed in the last 20, 25 years or so. So how did, how did this all come about for you? Like what, what gave birth to the idea and how did you get started? [00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, funnily enough, it was through Habitat for Humanity as well, but in, in South Africa and I was working in investment banking at the time and I was six years into that in London and I took a trip to South Africa really with a, a friend of mine who was actually living in South Africa and had become a tour guide down there. And we were. He invited me down to. Yeah. Travel around South Africa with him and his wife. And I didn't need too much convincing. I'd already caught the travel bug by that point. And he knew that I love travel and would. And as we were tossing around some ideas about how to do something career wise, travel related. And one idea that I had was to combine sightseeing with service. And he said, well, actually, you know, I've got this good friend who runs Habitat for Humanity in, in Cape Town. Would you like to see if they've got a build going when. For when we get down there? And I said, yeah, sure, that'd be great. And so he got in touch with this friend and as luck or providence would have it, I. There was a bill happening at that point and so I got to participate in it and it really. Well, it changed my life in a nutshell, but it added two extra dimensions to travel for me, which were really powerful. One, I actually got to engage with the local people and hear their stories and, and gain insights into their lives and, and then secondly, it just felt great to actually make a difference in the lives of the family that we were helping alongside to build. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:23] Speaker B: And so I got thinking, well, you know, I've learned some good business skills. Why don't I put into something I'd find a bit more meaningful and fulfilling and enable others to have similar experiences to what I've just had. And so that was really the. Yeah. The birthing of what became Hands Up Holidays. [00:05:39] Speaker A: That's really cool. And what you're talking about with meeting locals on vacations or when you're traveling, that's something that, I mean, I took it for granted because I grew up traveling that way and we would always stay with the people. My parents were missionaries and so we, you know, before I was even in high school or out of high school, I'd been in like four different continents and We've been to Africa and Eastern Europe and orphanages and all that kind of stuff. But it was always very much like we would always go do really fun stuff. That's like, what, what you're doing is so fascinating because it's really. I, I totally see the value. Like, you don't even have to fully explain. I don't, I don't. I want to hear all about what you do for families and stuff, but it's like I just connected with that immediately because that's how I grew up. Like, we'd go do fun stuff, but it was always in service of the people that are going to visit. And when you go to a place and get to know people, the local people, not just stay at a nice hotel and, and you know, get to know the, the people who are also fluent in English and can speak your language, maybe they studied abroad or whatever, but when you really get to know the local people, it's a whole different travel experience. So have you, have you found that that really was a catalyst for, for growing your business in the early stage, or was it tough to educate people or to convince people that, hey, this is actually going to be really impactful for you, for your family to go and live this way, to travel this world? [00:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. I think this certainly was a strong aspect of making it explaining that the notion of combining luxury with, with service and they're not intuitively go together, but we went that route really in order to make it easy for people who want to give back but don't want to have to rough it. And, and it also tied in very much with our, our concept, which I describe as philanthropolunteering. And what I mean by that is that it's the funds that our clients bring, which is the main benefit that they bring because they're volunteering for just a short period of time. And so it's not the time, and generally it's not the skills that they bring. Sometimes it is with doctors, as I mentioned, but more often they're just there for a short period of time. And so it's the funds to pay for the materials of the house and employ local people to actually do most of the work, certainly do the tricky parts and to supervise our unskilled clients. And then it's the benefit that the clients get is that interaction that we've just spoken about and that engagement. And so it's marrying those things together. And so there was an education around, as I say, that marriage. But what also really Surprised me really, when, when I first launched, I had young professionals in mind as our main target audience. Sort of, I guess that was myself at the time, sort of 25 to 35 year old, cash rich, time poor, who wanted to have a great vacation but also wanted to make a difference. But right from the outset we were getting inquiries and then bookings from families and families weren't on my radar at all. So I was really surprised. And so I'd ask them, you know, why are you booking with us? And they seem to just get it because they say things like, our kids come from pretty privileged backgrounds and we really want them to appreciate how fortunate they are. Or they say, you know, we're looking for a great family bonding experience and this nails it for us. And so for them, there wasn't a sort of education required. As I say, they just sort of got it. And, and so that seemed to, you know, what seemed to fit into going with the flow was to, was to focus on that audience, that family market. And so it, over a pretty short period of time, we shifted our focus to the families and have never looked back. [00:10:09] Speaker A: And did you have to change a lot as far as what you were doing with the relationships? If you started, you know, catering to young professionals, I'm sure that those would have been different experiences, different adventures, different hotels, maybe even completely different locations than it might be with families. Did you have to like really sort of pivot to, to go where the market was telling you it was going? [00:10:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, to an extent. I mean, I, I, the destinations didn't really change it because that part has always been through the lens of it still being a vacation spot. So whilst they tend to be on the exotic side, the destinations are still popular within that exotic lens. So, you know, it's, it's Kenya, it's Costa Rica, it's Mexico, it's not Dar or Sudan or. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that didn't really change, but yet the hotels did change. We certainly sought out those that were more family friendly. Yep, there was that. And the volunteering experiences, I wouldn't say changed, but we certainly had to communicate that not all of them would necessarily be appropriate, depending on the ages of the children. And so, for instance, the building projects, certainly we get families with young children involved, but they focus more on that purely on the interaction and playing with local children of their age, which is still great. But we also, if they do want to get more involved, we tend to steer them towards our wildlife conservation projects, where children as young as five can help with preparing the Meals for, for the animals or you know, helping to maintain their enclosures, creating enrichments to stimulate them so young children can still get involved with those projects. So yeah, I wouldn't say the projects themselves changed as much as just being clear on, on what's appropriate for the different ages. [00:12:23] Speaker A: Sure, that makes sense. So more, more kind of customized trips and you have different options based on the ages. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact was part of our pivot actually was when we did launch, when we first launched we had scheduled group trips for you know, X, Y and Z date and your small groups that sort of up to 12 people. But we, they also had a minimum number of, of either sort of four or six. And, and one frustrating thing was that we would, you know, might get, you know, two or three people booking, but then not getting a minimum and having to, you know, try and you know, move them onto another trip or even, you know, not run, not run a trip was really frustrating. And that was when we started to focus on families. Then you already had a, you know, a unit of, you know, four or five people. So that was a ready made trip. So then we shifted pretty quickly into, into fully customized model, moving away from those, you know, fixed itinerary, fixed date to fully customized for whatever date you want. [00:13:31] Speaker A: And you mentioned that part of the benefit was people would bring in extra funds to capitalize the project. So it wasn't just that they were coming and, and going to volunteer on an already existing project, but they could actually fund that. So I think about something recent like that's been controversial. Who knows what the truth is. It seems like the guy did something good. The popular YouTuber Mr. Beast went to Africa and like he put in I don't know how many wells or whatever. And it was, it was sort of his own thing that he went and did. But that might be. Is that sort of how you operated where you were like, okay, here are some options, here are some needs in this area. Here's all the amazing adventure and, and the nature and the things you can see. But here are the needs. What would you like to fund? Is that how you did it? [00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:21] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Really? I mean, yeah, yeah. I think it's not with impact destinations. It's even more like you just described. But it does apply to both in that. Yeah, we are I think pretty clear that it is your, your part of your trip package price is paying for the materials it's paying for, as I mentioned, actually employing local people on that project and just quickly talking about impact destinations. The reason I say it's a bit more clear is that impact destination doesn't involve hands on volunteering. It is more around actually your funds will enable the experts in that destination to do what they do best. And so that could be anything from funding a rhino relocation from a reserve that's facing a lot of poaching to a better protected reserve. In the poached reserve is in South Africa and actually the better protected one is in Botswana. So this is where the guests actually fund and go into the helicopter with the veterinarian while he's darting the rhino and then land and spend some time with a sedated rhino before seeing it get airlifted off to Botswana. Yeah, or another one we're working on. It's actually not, not official yet, but I'm super excited about it, so I'll share it with you. Is actually funding a, a raid on a, on a, on a, on a brothel in, in Thailand that is, is using underaged, trafficked young women. And so funding that raid. And in exchange for that, you actually get to spend time with the, the people who are undercover both before and after the raid to hear how it. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Went to understand like how they do their research and their connections and all of that. Like it's almost be like being part of a spy movie that's doing, doing good. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Cool. And how do you. So this is a question more specific to the use of funds because I, like, I've lived in a lot of different places and I lived in Cambodia actually for a while and was part of an NGO there. We were raising crickets and we did some other agricultural stuff. But one of the jokes was like, if you want a new Range Rover, start an ngo. And the reason for that is because of the, you know, the misuse of funds was just so blatant and so obvious. And so for you, as I'm not sure how big the organization. Organization is, maybe you can, can speak to that. But for you as an individual who's living in New Zealand and I imagine travels to a lot of these places and whatnot, how do you make sure that the funds that are going to these places actually get used so that it's not like most, you know, huge organizations? I won't name any names. Everybody has their favorite to pick on. But like it's like 90 goes to overhead and like maybe a few percent goes to actually helping people. So how do you manage that from your position and the way that your organization is structured? [00:17:48] Speaker B: I think we're immensely advantaged by being Small. And so each project is distinct. So if it's, well, let's say Cambodia, we do house building there. If it, you know, house in Cambodia cost $5,000. And, and so, you know, we, we have those costings and that's the amount that we send. And then, then we actually physically are seeing it being built and you know, our clients are participating in that. So it's all, it's very clear. And, and so there isn't that sort of scope for, you know, things, Money to go missing or you know, things to, to, to get funneled elsewhere because we're small enough to, to be able to have that oversight over each project. [00:18:44] Speaker A: Nice. And do you run them simultaneously or is it something where you have, right now you have multiple projects going on at the same time and so you. [00:18:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we do just have a. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Good team in each place. [00:18:56] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean, part of our philosophy is, is to, is to be as grassroots as possible and employ local guides everywhere. So, so everything is, is, is run locally. [00:19:10] Speaker A: And how do you determine like, what the, the areas of need are? Like? Do you go personally and, and sort of scope this out or is this something that you've done a couple decades, as during your travels, like, oh, this is an area of need and you build relationship with people there, or. [00:19:27] Speaker B: Yes, but it's, it's always from the perspective of asking the community what they see the needs are, as opposed to me going in with my preconceived notions and agenda saying, oh, you should be doing this. It's, it's really much more consultative and asking them, firstly, would they like, help? And then secondly, if the answer is yes, then what would that look like? And then it's up to us to, to, to, to market it to our, to our clients. [00:20:01] Speaker A: So give me sort of like an overview of what you've got going on right now. Like, what are some of the, the top projects? Maybe just two or three of the really cool, interesting projects that you have in different parts of the world. [00:20:12] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Okay. Yes. Ones that are a little bit off the beaten track, so to speak. Welcome. Yeah, you'll see what I mean. Some of my favorites would be in Argentina we have a project that is creating solar heating for families using recycled bottles and cans. And, and so it's got lots of benefits. One, you know, saving that the family's money because that the panels are generating the heating for them. But then secondly, it's actually recycling the cans and bottles. So it's a win environmentally as well. And by being solar it's not drawing on fossil fuels, so that's lots of wins there. [00:21:06] Speaker A: Sure. So it's off the grid. Are you working with a big company for that, for the solar panels or how do you recycle bottles into solar panels? [00:21:14] Speaker B: I don't know the technology, but there's, it's, it's a small NGO that, that's come up with the technology to do it. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Because I've seen the like bottles used in, in Asia where they, they'll put them for lights. So they'll put them up in the roof or they'll put them into the walls. And so you have this beautiful. Actually some of those might have been glass where they recycle the glass bottle glass. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Yeah, let's. [00:21:37] Speaker A: It lets in the light through the cement and it's like. And those are really cool ideas, but I've never heard of recycling into solar panels. It's interesting. [00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another one that I like is that we offer in places like near you in Belize, which is, it's installing eco friendly stoves in traditional huts. And these stoves replace the open flames that are typically used. And so they've got a few benefits. One with the open flames is the risk, especially with young children running around of burns. And so by having an enclosed stove and inhalation issues. Yeah. So by having a chimney, respiratory problems are dramatically reduced as well. And then they're much more energy efficient. So from an environmental perspective they're a win also. And these are great because they can be completed from start to finish in, in just two or three days. So they're a great, Yeah. A great project to, to, for, for a family. Can you have that feeling of satisfaction of starting it and finishing it? [00:22:48] Speaker A: Exactly. A family would go there and they'd go like on a snorkeling or scuba diving vacation, something like that. And then they would go and work for a couple days to help put these stoves in place. Is that how it would work? [00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Maybe throw in a bit of, you know, the Mayan ruins and maybe a chocolate making class as well. But yeah, you've got it. Yeah, yeah. [00:23:07] Speaker A: I remember like I spent a lot of time in Guatemala for a few years and I remember seeing kids as young as like four or five with just huge bundles of sticks and they would have the thing around their head and they're carrying these sticks back up the hill and it was for exactly what you're talking about, like they had to go and collect sticks so that they could have something to cook with and I mean even though what they were cooking was probably very simple, you know, maze and beans and maybe tortillas or whatever, but it's like these little kids were going and doing this work and that's something that what you're, what you're putting in is a solution to a whole bunch of things because then the kid like doesn't have to go and collect that. So now it's like, well now the kid can get an education, right? [00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's very cool. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah, those knock on benefits are really powerful. I mean they're not necessarily, you don't necessarily think of them but you know, having a, a house that doesn't leak has those same sort of knock on benefits in terms of actually, you know, you're less, you're sick less often. So you can go to school or go to work more often. Yeah. [00:24:13] Speaker A: Getting rid of mold and all those things. Yeah, that's super cool. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:17] Speaker A: So, so you got solar panels in Argentina, you have the stoves in Belize. What are a couple more anything like in the far out of Mongolia working with like sheep herders and their yurts or something in I don't know, Central Africa. [00:24:36] Speaker B: Central Africa, yeah, Yep. Well, central eastern Africa we do around so both in Kenya and, and Tanzania we, we have a, a strong relationship with a Maasai community in Kenya that is, is actually they run as far as I know the only Masai run camp in, in well either Kenya or Tanzania. And they're very forward thinking in that relative to other Massi communities. And for instance they're very outspoken against female genital mutilation and also forced early marriage. And so because of that we've been historic in the past. We've had. Our clients have built a accommodation for young women that are fleeing other villages that still practice FGM and forced early marriage. And so it's, it's accommodation for them in this village where they can get an education and have more control over the, over their lives. And so, and so that, that, yeah it is, it is, it's an amazing community. You know, just in addition, because you can go on safari with them as well. But plus that we, they also offer. You can essentially spend a day as a Maasai warrior and learn, go out with them and see what their practices are both with hunting and then also with herbs and local plants as well. And then also we run what we call the Maasai Olympics which is some spear throwing and, and archery lessons as well. So it's you know, out on the savannah a lot of fun. [00:26:35] Speaker A: Very cool. Very authentic too. How do you deal with safety stuff? Like not, not the, like the Maasai Olympics. That makes sense. I'm sure you can make that safe. But like going and hunting. I mean, if they're going after. [00:26:47] Speaker B: We're not going hunting. No, no. It's more like walking with them and saying. Just getting an insight into their lives around what it would be. They actually don't. You don't participate in a hunt with them, but. [00:26:59] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Sort of going in that. Where. Where they would go for it, but not actually hunting. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Got it, got it. Do you have to deal with safety stuff, though? I mean, I, I think of immediately poisonous snakes, scorpions, bees, all that kind of stuff. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's the risk there. [00:27:20] Speaker A: Well, just local guides that know what they're doing. [00:27:23] Speaker B: You, you nailed it there, Josh. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, there are inherently risks when you are in. In that sort of context and, and you're on foot. There are risks, but they're massively reduced when you're with the local people who've, you know, they live that environment. [00:27:42] Speaker A: But do you carry. And, and you don't have to answer if you don't feel like answering any of these questions, but do you carry insurance for the outing, for. For those trips or is it something where you're like subcontracting to a local guide and they're dealing with the insurance and the liability and you're more of just sort of the. The broker, the middle man that's. That's putting it all together and curating this whole trip for the client. [00:28:10] Speaker B: It's all of the above. We carry insurance. We require our partners to cover. Carry insurance and strongly urge our own clients to cut. To get insurance as well. [00:28:20] Speaker A: Travel insurance. [00:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Yeah. A belt and braces approach. [00:28:24] Speaker A: Nice. Have you ever had any issues? [00:28:28] Speaker B: Nothing of any significance. I mean, you know, some, some first aid requirement, but. And then, you know, we've had things like travel disruption due to volcanoes erupting in Iceland and so on, but, you know, you know, a few extra days in the destination, but, you know, nothing major. [00:28:49] Speaker A: Nice. So over. Over the years, how has this changed for you? Like you. You change. You realized early that it was going to be more geared toward families. Now you have another thing with impact, destination. So how has this sort of remained a passion of yours? Because you've been. When did you say you started? Sorry, but you don't remember exactly the date. [00:29:12] Speaker B: Well, that trip I mentioned in South Africa was 2002, and then we launched in 2006. So nearly 20 years. We've been 20 years alive for. [00:29:20] Speaker A: So how has it evolved for you over that time? Because, man, I left so I was in the US for, for high school and college and then I was there for a couple years and then I left and became an expat. So I've been an expat for, for almost 20 years as well. My, my first stop was Costa Rica and then I've just been kind of all over the last 20 years. But I've seen so many changes in, not just in travel, the ease of travel, in possibilities when you go to different destinations, and the acceptance and the understanding of tourists, etc, but also just in exploitation of places for Instagram, you know, that didn't exist when we started really traveling. Right. So 20 years ago there was none of that. So it's been more in the last decade that things have really changed and really sped up. So like, how have you evolved with those changes in the way that you are presenting trips and staying relevant and staying fresh and, and keeping the passion there for yourself? [00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah, great question. Huh? I, yeah, it's a really interesting question, I think. And maybe, maybe we've been somewhat saved by the fact that we, we are targeting the families and so we're somewhat older audience and so that whole Instagram phenomenon, which I have this adverse reaction to and so I haven't really focused on. Certainly. I, I know what you're saying. Absolutely. You know, it's. Occasionally you come across someone's feed and it's just like exploitation is a good description of it, but I think. So we may be at risk of not responding well to the young generation. That might be something we need to address. But so far our family audience is, is responding well to what we offer. And, and that's sort of excluding the, the. Well, we're not putting this, we're not trying to tailor things to pretty it up for, for Instagram. Right. And, and just trying to be as authentic as possible. [00:31:55] Speaker A: And that's probably why it works then because like that, that's been a huge part of the criticism of different influencers. And I'll pay too much attention to it. I just see things now and then and it's like, oh yeah, that is interesting because I've seen it on the ground in different places where I've lived, where people come and they, they do good or they, they act like they're doing good, mostly just so they can get the photo op and then they go back to their lives or whatever. Yeah, they're not actually. [00:32:21] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:32:23] Speaker A: So, but it would seem like with your clientele, I mean, these are people the way that you describe the families. And I, I totally understand it because I want to do that with my kids as well. It's like if, if you grow up with having everything, that's, that's fine, that's great. But you, you also need to be able to empathize and understand that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily live like you. And so, I mean, I can see how parents would want to, not artificially but would want to say, hey, let's go make an impact. We're going to create a scenario for our kids to truly maybe rough it a little bit in learning and working with people, get to know how other people live. Even if we're going to stay in a nice place because we want our kids to be safe in a, you know, five star hotel or glamping or whatever. Not going to make them sleep in the dirt, but which I probably would do. That's how I, I kind of grew up. But totally understand the, the other way and just have them go and work. That's going to be less of a. We're just doing this for Instagram because the parents are motivated by truly getting that togetherness, that experience, the memory, but also the lessons that their kids will hold for a lifetime. [00:33:29] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It's those soft skills that fortunately our clients seem to get that are developed in the experience. I mean, you mentioned empathy, generosity, compassion, a sense of contentment as well. Cindy was one of the key lessons that I've taken from my interactions. Yeah. [00:33:52] Speaker A: Do you think maybe that there will be some change in the, in the coming years as the younger generations now are starting families of their own and so you have more of the younger millennials and then, you know, over the next five years I have more of young Gen Z maybe even starting families and then wanting to do these kind of trips. But they've grown up with completely different world with seeing Instagram and, and the social media feeds. Tick tock. Going to all these places and doing all these extreme things. So do you think that that'll change or do you plan to just say, like, this is who we are, this is the core of our ethos of, of what we offer and we're going to attract the clientele that are, that are going for that. Not too, not too worried about, you know, having to change to adjust for the, the families that want more Instagrammable things. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I hope to be able to, you know, I hope we're still standing because that, that is the, the approach I, I intend to take. But at the same time, you know, we, in parallel to the Instagram and social media, another movement that obviously, you know, you're, everyone's aware of is AI and, and I, I think that what we offer comes comes back to. It's, it's. I, I think, you know, there's many, many great things about AI but also there is, but, but I mean, the clue is in the name. It's artificial. You're losing humanity. There is no human in AI and so what we're offering is that opportunity to, to be authentic and, and get real connections. And that can be, you know, with people you already know, I. E. Within your family unit, but also with people you don't know already. And I think that when AI becomes even more and more prevalent, that desire for human connection and authenticity is only going to increase and we're going to, so I think we're going to be able to continue doing what we do as a kind of antidote to AI, so to speak. [00:36:14] Speaker A: That's a really great point. Yeah. Because AI travel is on one hand, it can be seen as a competitor, but it's, it is in a way that is soulless. Like you're saying, it's, it's going to give you a good trip and it might even say, hey, there's these organizations that are in this place where you want to go. I can craft an itinerary for you and you can go and work with these. But it's not the same because it's, well, it's not the same anyway because then the person has to go and curate those things and, and contact the NGO and contact the tour and whatever. But it also completely misses that authentic understanding of what the real needs are and the relationships that you have and whatnot, which is, I mean, you're absolutely right. Like I. AI is a great tool. It's fun. There's many incredible things that are just mind blowing of what it can do right now. And I'm sure in the coming years, who knows how it's going to get weaponized? Who knows, like all of you know, what's going to happen to the job market and all these things. But also the, the need for human connection is, it's showing up, I think already with our addiction to social media and our devices and, and slowly. I mean, it really showed up, I guess during, during the, the COVID years, right. When people were locked in their homes and there was not so much personal interaction and we saw the mental health really just drop. So that is absolutely something that, that you guys have a, you know, a unique selling point that AI is never going to be able to, to touch because it requires that human connection and that human, you know, personalization of the whole thing. [00:37:55] Speaker B: It really does. [00:37:57] Speaker A: So as far as I was going to ask you something about purpose. Yeah. You started this thing because you wanted to make a difference and you wanted to connect it with your passion of traveling. And it's grown into something that is, I, I'm assuming is self sustaining, that you can live comfortably on. You enjoy your life. Like it's difficult. Excuse me, how have you been able to balance the need for profit in the business with. I'm just living my passion. I'm helping people go and travel, which I love to travel. And I'm making a difference because that's a really difficult tightrope to walk. At least I have found that it is. And the people that I know, they're in doing similar things, it's tough. So how have you found that balance and the ability to do that over the years? [00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it, it's, I think for me it's by prioritizing, making the work fulfilling and meaningful and, and living out my passion. Then the, the profit seem to have just come from that. I think I'm not expressing it very well, but I think part of that passion is, is for creating extraordinary experiences for our clients. And that then translates into, you know, word of mouth and repeat clients. And those are, you know, the perfect marketing channels really because, you know, they're very low cost and, and so that, you know, helps with margins. And so I guess that's what I'm saying that if the, the passion and creating great experiences generates that loyalty which, which then has its own virtuous circle of, of, you know, raving fans who, who then propel the, the profits. [00:40:20] Speaker A: So would you say you've, you've found, with this, you've sort of found your icy guy and that it's what you love, what you're good at, what the world needs and what you can get paid for and it just has sort of become a flywheel? That's, that's. [00:40:32] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yep. You've, you've articulated much better than I. [00:40:36] Speaker A: How, how many challenges or what were some of the big challenges that you faced during that time though? Because I imagine with any business, with any venture, with any passion project, there's always challenges that you eventually get to the point of like, man, should I keep doing this? Is it worth it? Like what did you have any of those moments over the years and, and how did you get through them? [00:40:59] Speaker B: Well, I mean this, there is still, you know, one continuing challenge which is awareness really. There's still, you know, we're small organization, but there's still not that. The awareness that you could have a vacation, especially at the luxury end and make a difference is very low. The number of people I say that I meet that say, oh, I had no idea that you could travel in luxury and give back is, is quite extraordinary. And, and then once you sort of do a bit of a deep dive, it sort of clicks and resonates and I said, oh yeah, okay, that sounds awesome. And then so, so that's, that's a perennial challenge, but it's, it's one of those, not never to the point of giving up. It's like it's this wonderful puzzle that we're going to try and crack on. [00:42:01] Speaker A: The marketing side of figuring out how to reach those people and. [00:42:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:42:06] Speaker A: And how do you do that? Because I, I remember seeing a few years ago an NFL player, Larry Fitzgerald. Maybe I shouldn't be mention names. I don't want to mention any competition, but I don't think it's competition because it's just pure luxury travel. It's just they curate really high end luxury trips. But it was an interesting concept or it seemed like it was something that was not really happening at all back then, but that is just pure like curated luxury travel. What you're doing takes it to a whole different level that I'm sure people don't know about because it's like, yeah, do that, but also make a difference. And I think more and more people, especially people with means, do want to give back and they do want to make a difference and help out where they can. So where would you like, where do you find those people, you know, to give away your, your marketing strategy, but like has it been tough to, to go and find groups to network with those people or is it, is it certain places that you advertise or just, just word of mouth has been enough to sustain the whole thing and, and doing a great job with that and then people come to you. I mean, that's the best marketing there is. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. Word of mouth has done a lot, but it's not the whole story. We've been really fortunate from certainly when we first launched to get some great publicity and being new back in 2006, we were in those early years, you know, we got some good coverage in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, cnn. We won the Travel and Leisure Global Vision Award in, I think, 2008. Oh, wow. And, yeah, so, yes, some really good coverage. And then I, I was actually just in Las Vegas about a month ago doing what I describe as sort of speed dating with the, with the luxury media outlets such as Rob report, condonest traveler fr and so on. And it was like I had 25, 15 minute, you know, appointments with them to pitch the product. So publicity is definitely been important and, and continues to be. So what about on the ground? [00:44:47] Speaker A: Like, you mentioned the hotels or you mean you mentioned the, like the, some of the magazines that got me thinking about the hotels. Do you work with certain, like, luxury hotel brands or. Especially now that there seems to be so much consolidation? You know, once you get a relationship with one of those, it's like there's 100 hotels around the world of different, different levels and stuff. Do you work that way too? In that once, once people are saying, okay, we're going to go to this hotel, we're going to go stay in this place. And then they start looking for things. The hotel is like, oh, well, you should consider doing this because you can go on this amazing trip and have this adventure from here. You can base in our hotel and you can also make a difference. Has that been effective as well, or. [00:45:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's funny you should suggest that because I'd missed that up until about a month ago. And actually at that same event, there was a representative from one of the. Actually, I won't say their name because nothing's formalized just yet, but we're going down that line. Exactly what you're talking about. And they're one of the, I mean, they, they have about 10 properties around the world, so they're not, they're not the Hilton or massive brand like that, but we're already working with them, so it's, it's makes perfect sense to do some cross promotion there. Yeah. [00:46:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll send you another thing when we get offline that I saw just the last couple of days that recently raised a funding round. It's sort of like a competitor to Airbnb, but it's, it's in a specific region that I'm sure you have different things going on. And, and that might be someone also that you could, could connect with because they're just doing like the, the lodging aspect of it, but it's like really, really nice. And maybe you've seen this over the years too of like, what luxury travel means has really changed from, you know, Our parents generation to, our generation to now the kids generation. Like it, it's, it's changed over the years in terms of where people want to stay and what, what luxury really means. So this is like a new startup that's aiming to sort of corner a younger market in terms of the, the lodging, but in those places where there's a lot of experiences and to go and do things. So I think you'll be, you'll find if you go down that road with different hotels and with different relationships that I'm sure you already have, you'll, you'll be able to find like a lot of reverse marketing in that. Yeah, you know, maybe they'll ask you for percentage or whatever, but that seems to be a way that you can really expand what you're already doing in those areas and then just sort of not trying to curate something necessarily new in a new place, but you just build on what you already have in those, those places. I can see that working really well. That's cool. Well, where do you see this going like over the next five years? Let's say you mentioned AI, so that's something that know, maybe you can incorporate or, or you have to deal with. But what, in terms of your vision for where you want to see your brand and, and your trips and everything going, what, what would that look like? [00:48:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's, it's really, I think more or less what we've just touched on. Greater awareness so that it's, it's something that people are considering in their menu of, of options. You know, you know, just off the top of my head they might think oh, a cruise, a safari, a trip to you know, Europe. And then another, another one is oh, how about, you know, a philanthropic trip so that it's in there repertoire of things that they're evaluating would be, would be an amazing result. And you know, certainly from our sort of organizational perspective really we look to sort of be growing incrementally. Nothing, nothing crazy, just rolling out new destinations as, as I get out to evaluate them and assess if they're a good fit. But I'll quickly touch on, we've got a couple of other brands as well. One is in the school space and really looking to grow that. I mean you mentioned actually teenagers going to do a habitat, build that sort of thing. It's not luxury, but it's focusing on, on the school, the school's market and so really hands on the. [00:49:45] Speaker A: Hands on school trips, right? [00:49:47] Speaker B: Yeah, hands up school trips. Yeah. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:49:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, and then we've Also got one that is live, but in the, it's in the process of being refreshed, which is for, for the corporate market, which is hands up incentives. And, and so that one is really playing on things like employee engagement and team building and corporate social responsibility. And so including a give back component to a sales incentive trip or meeting or whatever the case may be very cool. [00:50:27] Speaker A: And with those ones, is it more extreme catering to team building and whatnot? Is it more of like, instead of just going in on a safari, which I guess it would also be extreme, but I'm just thinking of like being in a car versus we're gonna go whitewater rafting or we're gonna go bungee jumping or, you know, do some, some crazy things like that for team building exercises, or we're gonna go do a tough mudder type of obstacle course or in the jungle. Like, how does it, how do those work? [00:51:02] Speaker B: Yeah, well, actually, I mean, yes, we could do all of those, but really it's the team building. We're still playing on that concept of including this give back component. So the team building comes from the, the, the building the library together or. [00:51:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Or whatever the case may be. That is the, is the, the philanthropic project is, is the team building. Yeah. [00:51:33] Speaker A: So if you're, you're physically building a house or, or digging a well or. [00:51:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:38] Speaker A: Helping out in different ways than that. Yeah, then yeah, that's cool. So how often do you get out? Do you, do you have kids as. As well or see, like, how does it work? Like, would this be a good trip? [00:51:51] Speaker B: Yeah, we do. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, we've traveled recently with them in, in Bali where we got involved with. In addition, like you said, you mentioned rafting. We did some rafting. We did some mountain biking there. We did some hiking to waterfalls. And then our project there was creating a disabled accessible bathroom for a paraplegic. And it's unique project for us in that the benefit really accrues to just one person, the paraplegic. But the impact on their life is so profound that I love to do it. So it's really special to do it with my kids. And the background for it is that in Bali, being a Hindu island, if you're born with a disability, it can be considered bad karma. And so people with disabilities can be sort of hidden away and lead very lonely, isolated lives. And so to be able to bring this measure of dignity and independence in the area that's so personal. I go into the bathroom is, as I say, really profound. So the kids were able to get involved with drawing water from the village well, taking that water over to where the cement was being mixed, and then get involved themselves in mixing the cement, because that was all done by hand. And then spading it into the. Into the wheelbarrow and then wheeling it off to where the experts were doing the tricky parts was great. And then they'd also play. The local kids, play soccer with them. So that was, you know, really special, really cool. [00:53:38] Speaker A: And it's. It's cool that also. That. That you're focused. It seems like most of these things are focused on human impact versus planting a few trees, which is also great. There's. I mean, there's nothing wrong with going. Doing environmental projects and whatever, but I just have seen, like, I've. I've been in sort of a. In eco space for a really long time. And then in my previous life before that, I was traveling the world as a whitewater athlete. And so I was, you know, always pack it in, pack it out. You know, very environmentally conscious. But that's always been something that I've seen that's kind of bothered me is it's like there's so much focus on the environment, and there's not as much focus on people. It's like, why do we want a beautiful environment for the people? Like. Like, I'm very much a humanist in that sense of. [00:54:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:54:28] Speaker A: It's. It's got to be people first before we worry about, you know, an insect that maybe was only in one area. Like, okay, let's see. How can we balance this? But the. The people. So, like, the fact that you're doing so many of these projects to impact people directly is. I think that's really cool. Is that something that you consciously have done, or is it just sort of how it's. It's worked out that people want to. They see more impact right now by going and help building a house for a family as opposed to planting a tree. [00:54:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, there's two aspects to that for me. One is, like you said, or like we've been talking about, it's that when you do interact with the people, that's where the magic happens and the transformation occurs. So I definitely push it. And then secondly, things like planting trees and things like, you know, beach cleanups. I shy away from promoting those because I'd rather employ local people to do those than have our people come in and do those sort of things. Because it's certainly, in terms of our model is, as I say, it's around more that the financial impact is, is what you're making. And so. [00:55:58] Speaker A: And also I remember from Costa Rica, speaking of beach cleanups, like, I remember when I was living there, there was always like an annual help the turtles sort of thing when the turtle hatching happened, which I think there's like a few days where all the hatchlings come out and they go to the. The ocean. And so there was. There was always expats, foreigners who, who lived in the area or who would come down and they would have this, this big event to help the turtles, you know, get out to sea. And, and that's really cool. I mean, they're really cute and it's. They're doing something good, whatever. But at the same time, then when they would leave, there was always like little local restaurants that would sell you turtle eggs as a delicacy right on the menu. [00:56:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:56:41] Speaker A: And so it's like that hits exactly your point of what you just said, of you'd rather employ local people to do those things because then the local people understand the value of them as opposed to, oh, this is just a gringo thing that they come down and do. I don't care. I'm going to eat the turtle eggs the rest of the year. [00:56:57] Speaker B: Right? [00:56:58] Speaker A: Because. So then it's like a. Well, this is why we should keep the river clean. This is why we should take care of these areas. This is why we should, you know, try and be healthier in our. In the way that we're cooking. Instead of cutting down all the trees to cook, we're going to bring in stoves so that then you can use your time and resources and energy for something else like that. That really builds the whole community, I think, in a way that just having the foreigners come and do something doesn't. [00:57:27] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. And, you know, another example of that that springs to mind is a community we've been working with in India where the. We didn't facilitate this, but we were part of the NGO that did it, which is really around educating the importance of tigers and so actually transforming people from tiger poachers into tiger conservationists because they can actually see the value of the tigers and the tourism income that it brings to the area. And so when you have that go through that education process, then everyone wins. The tigers and the community. [00:58:13] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. So then it's like you're healing the ecosystem in a way, which is awesome for everyone. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, very cool. [00:58:22] Speaker A: Well, so what's, what would be like the, the biggest thing that you would want to share right now in Terms of, hey, this is something new that we're doing. This is, you know, something that most people are not aware of and you want to get the word out about, you know, if it's a new type of trip or is it the school's thing because you're then investing in the next generation or. [00:58:46] Speaker B: Yeah, it probably is. I think it, it, it's consistent with the feedback that we were getting from the parents around why they were booking with us about, you know, wanting to their kids to appreciate how fortunate they are or a great family bonding experience. Or they'd also say, you know, we want to inspire our kids to be the next generation of world changes. And so the, the hands up school trips, you know, speaks to, to those things, not the family bonding. But certainly, you know, there's a lot to be said for, you know, teenagers bonding together in something meaningful as well. And, and so yeah, it's, it's certainly something that, that I'm excited about driving further forward. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Do you have stories like over the last 10 or 20 years of, of people who have gone and done some of these things and then they come back and they, they message you or, or you hear through the grapevine, you know, 10 years later, like, man, this changed my life and because of that I am on this trajectory and now here I am at, at 25 or you know, whatever age. But I did this when I was a kid or a teenager and now this, this is why my life is on this path. Like, do you have stories like that that have. [01:00:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we do. We do. [01:00:08] Speaker A: That's cool. [01:00:09] Speaker B: And yeah, I mean, a couple that spring to mind in that context would be. There was one family that traveled with us to Morocco and they were building a library at a school, a sort of rural school about 45 minutes outside of Marrakesh. And their kids were, had three kids of varying ages. And so the younger one was sort of, as I sort of mentioned earlier, focusing more on just playing with the locals, which is great. And the trip went well. I didn't, you know, think too much more of it until I heard back from them that they said, oh, around Christmas time they said, oh, the kids said they did, didn't want their gifts this year. They wanted to send them to the, the children that they were playing with in the, in the village. Yeah, yeah, really cool. And yeah, and then one of those. [01:01:05] Speaker A: Impacts that the parents might not even have noticed that, that the kids had that. But just going, playing with kids in another culture. I understand that, like there's, I have a lot of Memories from lots of different places with, with kids. Because it's. No matter how much you try and teach your kids through books or, or film or just education in general, nothing beats an experience of going to another place and playing with kids your age that you know you can communicate with, even if it's just a little bit seeing how they live. Like, I remember playing basketball in a monsoon in Ghana, but the, the basket was like a tire on the ground. And so it was like a mix of like basketball and soccer and like for me is like this white kid who was there. It was just like the coolest experience ever. And for them, like I, I think that they loved it too. And we just said we got along so well and like those experiences really stick with you. I think that we are all just human and we are, you know, we're really, really similar at the core. [01:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. There's so much of othering and dehumanizing of people these days and, and so by having these connections, you, like you said you, you appreciate the, the common humanity in everybody. [01:02:27] Speaker A: Absolutely, yeah. And so much of the division is just artificially created because divide and conquer. Whereas like I, I, I always tell people that when they're like, well, so what was the coolest place they've been or what were the most interesting people or whatever. I'm like, man, the, the biggest lesson I think I've taken in my years of travel is just that like 99.9% of the planet, we're all really, really similar. Like we're all just people. We maybe believe different, like maybe believe in different religious framework or we eat different, we dress different, we talk different obviously, but people are people and that's the, the real impact that I think going and doing these kinds of trips, like whether it's, it's staying in luxury or whether it's, you know, roughing it or what. At whatever level. Totally so impactful. That's really cool. But where can people find you? What are, what are the you you have several brands or quite a few brands. It sounds like they're one central place where you, you, you send people. Or is it all of them? [01:03:28] Speaker B: There actually isn't. They are on sort of four separate websites. I'll quickly run through them. The hands up holidays impact destinations, hands up school trips and hands up incentives. [01:03:40] Speaker A: And hands of incentives. The corporate one, old dot com. Okay, very cool. Oh that. I'm gonna check out all of the websites and, and I'm gonna share it with a bunch of people. I, I have connections with with various groups that, I mean, through my travels and just through my career and whatnot, like people at all different socioeconomic strata. And also that, that what I think a lot of people would find this really, really interesting, what you're offering. And it's definitely not something that is talked about very much or, or known. And I mean, it seems like what you're doing is really unique. And that's, that's really cool. I think it's important, too. So I'm gonna be happy to share this. And yeah, best of luck with everything. I, I think it's really cool. So keep with it and look forward to, to seeing more great things coming out of these trips and stories of the impact that you're making and the impact that it's making on the people that go and do those things. [01:04:39] Speaker B: I really appreciate it. Thanks, Josh. [01:04:43] Speaker A: Like, and subscribe.